FM eyes thaw in Turkey ties after 2023 polls
Greece’s top diplomat warns of systemic proliferation of nationalist rhetoric in mainstream Turkish politics, while also commenting on Russia relations
In an interview with Kathimerini, Foreign Minister Nikos Dendias expresses hope that in the wake of the 2023 presidential elections in Turkey, “irrespective of the electoral result, conditions will prevail that could allow for the gradual improvement of relations” between Athens and Ankara. However, Dendias says that the problems in bilateral ties will not magically disappear even if President Recep Tayyip Erdogan were to be swept out of power, while stressing the systemic proliferation of far-right and nationalist rhetoric in mainstream Turkish politics.
The conservative heavyweight also takes stock of his three-year tenure at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Referring to the country’s relations with Russia, he says that their disruption has never been a Greek policy decision and emphasizes his own efforts to improve bilateral ties before the war in Ukraine.
It’s been five months since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, yet there appears to be no end in sight to the conflict. In the meantime, pressure on European citizens is growing. Greece has taken a clear stand. Are there second thoughts, however? Could the rift in Russia ties be at the country’s expense?
We need to understand that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine signaled the end of the post-Cold War status quo in Europe and beyond. To paraphrase Winston Churchill’s famous metaphor, we are regrettably faced with the closing of a new Iron Curtain [between Russia and its western neighbors]. The main difference today is that this is not an ideological division; but one of principles and values. On one side we have states that embrace principles like respect for international law, territorial integrity and national sovereignty, human rights, democracy. On the other, there are states that do not embrace these principles or maintain an ambivalent stance.
Greece’s position has always been clear. We will not make any compromises in connection with the principles on which we have built our policy. All European Union member states are on the same page. We acknowledge that this policy comes at a heavy price. However, the price would be far heavier had we not stuck to this principle. Since you mentioned Russia, allow me to make three observations. First, since [Prime Minister Kyriakos] Mitsotakis came into office, I have made great efforts to improve ties with Russia. Regrettably, these ties have been damaged, which is not the fault of Greece. Second, Greece has always supported Russia’s membership of a “Common European Home,” to borrow the concept of [former Russian president Mikhail] Gorbachev. We believe that Russia must be a part and member of the European security architecture, but on the condition that it respects the fundamental rules – which is not the case today. Third, Greece has longstanding historical, cultural and religious ties with Russia. Russia is the birthplace of internationally acclaimed writers, poets and musicians. We will not stop reading Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky and Mayakovsky or listening to Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev because of the invasion of Ukraine.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s nationalist ally Devlet Bahceli recenly posed next to yet another map depicting Greek islands as Turkish. Do you believe there is real danger?
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and, of course, the prime minister have already issued a formal reaction to the so-called Bahceli map. Under different circumstances, a similar incident would be described as colorful or absurd. However, given the overall atmosphere, it is disconcerting and dangerous, particularly coming from [Erdogan’s] government ally. It fits the pattern of the escalating nationalist rhetoric in the neighboring country against Greece. This rhetoric is not restricted to government circles but it seems to be embraced by part of the opposition. We deem that this rhetoric is partly related to the nascent polarization in Turkey ahead of the 2023 elections. That said, anyone who thinks that the problem in Greek-Turkish relations is its president and that if he goes the provocations will disappear, are deluding themselves. The issue is not, and it has never been, personal. This nationalist upsurge risks spilling over to Turkish society, part of which used to be favorably disposed towards our country. This recent change is also reflected in surveys. It is not what I experienced a few years ago. I will never forget the hospitality of the Turkish citizens during a private visit to Istanbul in 2019. Despite the apparent change of sentiment, I still believe that a large part of the Turkish people looks forward to a European future. However, under the present circumstances there seems to be no room for meaningful improvement in bilateral ties. At the same time, Turkey’s revisionism is constantly manifesting in new theories. Positions that were originally presented as extreme or absurd, such as the “Blue Homeland” [doctrine], the connection between the demilitarization of [Greece’s eastern Aegean] islands with their sovereign status, are gradually being incorporated into the official dogma of the Turkish state.
However, it is positive that even the most skeptical of our allies and partners recognize that the Turkish claims are unreasonable and unacceptable. I confirm this every time I show the controversial map to one of my counterparts, who understand the utter absurdity of the Turkish position.
Turkish officials accuse Greece of hypocrisy as, according to them, the Turkish air force is simply responding to overflights by the Greek air force over Turkish territory. What is your response to these accusations?
Turkish provocations are not simply in violation of the rules set out by international law, but of logic itself. Calmly and decisively, as always, we have intensified our information campaign to keep our allies, partners and public opinion aware.
Since we are discussing airspace violations and overflights, let’s talk about numbers. By June 30, the Turkish air force had violated Greek airspace 3,954 times and had conducted 136 flyovers over Greek territory. No further comment is necessary.
There is a constant debate concerning Greek-Turkish relations that often ends in the simplistic conclusion that conflict is, ultimately, unavoidable. Is there any – even if it is small – prospect of better relations?
We truly wish for open lines of communication with Ankara. We continue to work towards constructive dialogue. We think there is a solution, and that it is achievable. To get there however, Turkey must stop violating the basic tenets of international law and the Law of the Sea. We are not making outrageous demands. We ask that Turkey adhere to the values and principles that all states that are signatories to the United Nations Charter, the NATO Treaty and wish for European Union accession, must respect.
However, in this particularly negative outlook, I would like to share an optimistic thought. I hope that following the elections in Turkey, irrespective of the electoral result, conditions will prevail that could allow for the gradual improvement of relations. Relations between Greece and Turkey were not always, and should not be, competitive. We should not forget the periods of harmony between the two states, as brief as they may have been. Like in the 1930s, when a Treaty of Friendship was signed between Greek prime minister Eleftherios Venizelos and Turkish president Kemal Ataturk. Or in the early 1950s, when the two countries fought side by side in Korea and later joined NATO.
Pillar of stability
You have held the post of foreign minister for three years. Has our policy changed in that time? Have you achieved the goals you had set out?
The basic principles of Greek foreign policy, as I described them earlier, remain constant. Our policy is not determined by the vacillations of Turkish foreign, or domestic, policy. We are a member state of the European Union, and we forge our path with self-confidence. We are broadening our horizons and developing alliances and partnerships with any country that shares our values.
To give you an overview, allow me to share that since I assumed my post, I have visited 62 countries, I have made 1,123 international contacts and we have signed 215 international agreements. Our goal is to promote our country internationally, to upgrade its role, to broaden its alliances and to shield it from any threat. Greece is considered a reliable pillar of stability and security in the region. I believe we have achieved enough, and we should feel satisfied.
But we are not stopping there. Next week we are organizing an event ahead of the ninth international conference “Our Ocean Greece 2024,” held here, where I will host my counterparts from Gabon and Germany. I will also visit Cyprus, and later Vietnam and Cambodia. In a constantly shifting environment, we must adapt, but also demarcate Greece’s position.
Strategic depth
It was around this time 48 years ago that the Turkish invasion of Cyprus began. How close are we to a realistic framework to resolve the issue?
Unfortunately, as you point out, 48 years after the invasion, the division of Cyprus has not been resolved and it remains an international matter: an illegal invasion and occupation. Greece, in cooperation with the Republic of Cyprus, is working to find a just, functional and sustainable solution. The solution can be nothing other than a bicommunal, bizonal federation, as set out by the relevant decisions of the United Nations Security Council.
Unfortunately, the unacceptable and persistent calls by Turkey and the leadership of the Turkish-Cypriot community for a two-state solution, as well as the illegal actions in Varosha, are beyond the framework of a resolution. They do not allow any margin for optimism that a fruitful and realistic negotiating process can recommence.
EU membership negotiations with North Macedonia and Albania began a few days ago. Do you believe that this process will provide an opportunity to solve remaining bilateral differences?
You will allow me to express our significant satisfaction that the first intergovernmental conference between Albania and North Macedonia, finally, took place. We have also worked hard towards this. We have repeatedly stressed that the European prospects of the West Balkans, particularly in a volatile international environment, is a prerequisite for peace, security and stability. At the same time, at a time when the number of membership candidate states continues to grow, it is important to send a message to the countries in the region. Greece will continue to be there, assisting on a political and technical level.
Of course, the conditionality clauses, as set out in the conclusions of the European Council in March 2021, are still in effect. The path to accession for these states will be dependent on fulfilling these criteria.
You were at the Souda Bay base on Crete for a military exercise of the Greek armed forces with American F-35 advanced fighter jets. US officials have expressed their satisfaction with the excellent cooperation in Alexandroupoli and Souda. Are there ways to further strengthen the relationship with the US?
The recent exercise in Souda, with the participation of the F-35s, was the first time a squadron of the advanced fighter jets was deployed to another base. And it was the first live-fire exercise in Europe. These all highlight, even semantically, the deep strategic relationship between Greece and the United States.
Alexandroupoli is a new, important strategic choice. It is not only an energy hub, but a transit point for forces that reinforce the security of NATO’s eastern flank. It was included in our country’s and NATO’s security map via the first Protocol of Amendment of the Mutual Defense Cooperation Agreement (MDCA) that I had the honor of signing. Souda has long been a strategic choice. It is close to three straits through which there pass a significant proportion of international trade, specifically Gibraltar, Bosporus and Suez. At the same time, these locations boost deterrence capabilities and the ability to resist any revisionist claims that emerge in the area.
