‘I am neither with Tsipras, nor with Mitsotakis. I am a man of the Church’
Athens archbishop talks about real estate development plans, his relationship with prime ministers and the battle of the patriarchates
Shortly before the 15th anniversary of his election as archbishop of Athens and All Greece, Ieronymos talks to Kathimerini about a range of issues.
“The crisis is receding, but what remains is decadence,” he says of the current situation, emphasizing he need for the Church to get in tune with the times and the importance of re-evangelization.
Archbishop Ieronymos talks about his relationship with the political leadership, recalling conversations with center-right leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis and his leftist rival Alexis Tsipras. He also talks about the people who inspired him, about his vision for the future of the Church of Greece and about the difficulties and challenges that lie ahead. He discusses the importance of making use of the Church’s property and why it is crucial to move forward with the implementation of the Schisto project. He reveals interventions on the autocephaly of the Church of Ukraine and the importance of the relationship with the Ecumenical Patriarchate.
The archbishop also expresses concern about the crisis in Greek-Turkish relations and calls on the political leadership to form a united front on this and other major issues.
There seems to be growing brutality in Greek society, with every day bringing new reports of crimes, child abuse, etc. Is this something new or is it just more prominent because it gets a lot more coverage?
Every period has an identity. I think we’ve gone too far, with both what’s going on and the way it’s covered. Because what that poor little girl suffered is being brought into every home by being on the news all the time. Does this help? There is no doubt that what is happening is decadence. We once said that the crisis will be over, every crisis comes to an end, what remains is decadence. The decadence is vast and we see it more and more every day. Perhaps we need to get our act together. I’m concerned with all of this and it saddens me, we are going through a crisis, a decline.
What do the many people you meet tell you? Because you hear society.
Strange things, and highly contrasting. A young man, a graduate of the National Technical University of Athens, came to me and said: “I want a job, for four or five hours a day, no more, and I want a lot of free time.” I asked him if he was doing something else on the side, some research maybe. “No” he answered, “I am not doing anything else.” And what will you earn for these hours of work? I said. Do you have another job? “No,” he said. “My mother left me a small apartment and I live there; 500 euros is enough for me, I’ll eat, sleep and walk my dog.” I said: “But you’re 33 years old! Aren’t you thinking of having a family?” “You’re kidding?” he said and laughed. “You can have everything, why should I have a family?” “But don’t you have dreams?” I asked him. “And who gained anything from dreams?” he asked me. I was stunned.
In a changing society where communication is important, have you thought about using social media?
No, all this has gone too far. The question is for us to be able to envision the word “re-evangelization.” What we can do in terms of pastoralism, in order to get serious, to get modernized in a good sense, to be able to manage the “so-called” Christians, the strict ones, those who are harsh with everybody but themselves. We are taking small steps, to see how it goes.
‘We once said that the crisis will be over, every crisis comes to an end, but what remains is decadence. The decadence is vast and we see it more and more every day’
How do you see your journey so far and the challenges that lie ahead?
I graduated in archaeology and followed the excavation branch. I went on excavations and while I was an assistant at the university I met a priest who later became the metropolitan bishop of Thiva and Livadia. He was not highly educated but he knew how to love. He was active helping the deaf and mute, because there was no sign language at that time as there is now. He invented a sign language of his own, a practical one, in 1940, and he created a wave for the deaf and mute all over Greece. He was a simple man and he moved me more than anyone else and became a role model. It’s been 55 years since then and 15 years since I have been archbishop. I have taken experiences from all those years, the good and the bad, the conflicts with the state, the arguments, everything. I have no right to leave after 55 years without leaving my mark, with what I have experienced, what I have been inspired by, what I would like to do now. God has blessed me to be where I am today and while each archbishop in his tenure ordains six, seven or eight high priests, during my tenure – counting those of the last Holy Synod – it’s 57 out of 80. Every one of them was the result of hard work, this is important, and we also succeeded that the state did not interfere in the selection.
Mitsotakis or even Tsipras might have said to me “I would like this or that.” And I would say: “If it is within our scope, I would be happy to do it. If it’s not, I cannot.” And that helped so that today we have a unanimous hierarchy. The spirit is there to go a little further.
With what vision, what plan?
Let me refer you to the speech of the prime minister, Mr Mitsotakis, in Schisto. It was a great breakthrough in our history. After many discussions, I told him that we are neither in the period of King Otto nor in the governments after him,;we have entered a new era and we want to take advantage of it and do our work. We want you to give us freedom in the use of our property. Let us sit down, see what we have, what we want, come to an understanding. Come and help us work together to do something good, to help the people. We have institutions that are at risk right now. Why, if we have assets? We have neither proper engineers nor people with relevant experience to exploit them on our own. We should join forces. He told me, “the Hellenic Property Fund is at your disposal to prepare the project for you.” He didn’t say “do this or that” or “this is good, not that, give it there,” like in the past. He was sincere. He gives us the tools and a collaboration begins. The first thing we said we’re going to use is Schisto. From 1,900 hectares of land originally, we’re down to 300. It’s become a dump for trash and debris. There’s a study under way and it’s moving forward. Will it happen? It’s a vision. It’s not just that. We have property all over Greece. We want [the plot] to be included in the city plan. While all private property is being included, church property has to depend on the mayor, on private owners, etc. The European court has made a decision and condemns the method of settling everything except Church properties. And it says that the state must quickly include these areas in a town plan.
What areas are you referring to?
The decision is about Vouliagmeni and it says that if the zoning does not go ahead, we are entitled to 20 million euros per year retroactively from 2012 when we appealed, 20 million euros per year, which is 200 million euros. We are talking about an agreement with the municipality. It has to tell us what it wants. A school, roads, a kindergarten, a recreation center, stadiums? We will provide it. Let’s get together. There’s a discussion going on. The prime minister told us, “You are free to use your property as you wish,” adding that “having a plot of 100 hectares and looking at it is not property; property is there to be used, to generate revenue and to contribute to the needs of the people, to nursing homes, to institutions and all the needs you have.” That was never said before. And it needs to be said.
Why didn’t the former prime minister, Alexis Tsipras, with whom you had a close personal relationship, do all this?
Tsipras, after he was elected, came to me – I want to believe out of pure motives – and said that he wanted me to attend his swearing-in ceremony. I told him that what I advised him to do was to say: “These are my principles but I will make a concession for the sake of history, so that I am not the first one to do this, both for the popular oath of office and for the changing the Constitution.” After a while he came to see me and he said, sincerely: “Let’s rationalize the relations between Church and the state.” I said it’s a nice word, but I don’t understand this rationalization, even though I am a scholar; it is a new word. These are the words of [Nikos] Alivizatos, I told him. Alivizatos taught you this, but he didn’t do it well. This is not you. We sat down and talked; the man had no idea. A bit later he called me up and asked me: “When I get out of parliament and I have time, can I come by to see you?” “Whenever you want,” I said. And that’s when the discussion about the property began and we came up with a plan, but it was during the election period, there was a lot of noise, a lot of fuss, and then [Dimitris] Tzanakopoulos said “we’ll get rid of 10,000 priests to get nurses and doctors.” That’s what the high priests took from the talks, and I became “Syrizonymos,” etc. Tsipras was well disposed, but his entourage did not help.
What about now?
Now we have moved on. And we have reached this point with great difficulty. What has been done works for us but it is not over. Mitsotakis made more openings; the battle for the payroll has been a 200-year journey to get to where we are now. Another issue, one time I met with him, I said, “I want you to make me a commander at the Evelpidon School, of the air force.” “What are you talking about?” he asked me. “About us. Who is in charge of religious education?” I replied. And after 200 years he made an amendment and gave us a majority in the selection of teachers, a way to select clergy candidates and an increase of special courses. He amended the status of cemeteries where municipalities appointed whomever they wanted. And on our property, he opened a way, it is not easy, it requires land use etc. It is a vision, the Schisto will be half of Elliniko, which is a lot, the profits of the state will be enormous, and for us, it is enough to support the Church in addition to the salaries given by the state.
The opposition and critics may say that all this has happened because the Church holds votes, has power, and that the saying about the “right hand of the Lord” is being confirmed. How would you respond?
They should, at the very least, not speak. Even if we were given nothing, we would keep going, without being able to do want we want. While everybody gets to do what they want, when it comes to us, what we do is crooked. We do a lot of things wrong, I know, but not that much.
On the side of the Patriarch over Ukraine
Are there attitudes within the Church that are alienating believers? What is the Agios Isidoros issue and how will it be addressed?
Those who have not dealt with church affairs are making a mistake. They think this is the first time this has ever happened. It has happened many times. Many Christian organizations started out this way; they were just more polite. There is a lot of arrogance here. In the 1950s and 60s all of Greece was ruled by Christian organizations. Zoe, Sotiras, Kandiotis, etc. All of them started like that. That’s exactly how this is starting now. There is a certain arrogance, but we don’t know what it’s motivated by. It concerned us and still concerns us. A lot of people in pain went there and came back disappointed. It’s a phenomenon that appeared and will disappear. The Church instructed the archimandrite – at the time – of Larissa, and conducted a thorough investigation and took it to justice. A very harsh text but not far from reality. The responsibility fell on me. Who am I? A military commander, a police chief or am I also a father? Say you have a child who’s misbehaving, won’t you try to advise him? I decided to carry the burden, but I also want to be a father. It’s not just him, it’s also 16 youngsters, aged 25 to 30. A community with no legal existence. I invited them, I talked to them and said: “You want to become monks? This is not possible here, there is no monastery.” Shouldn’t I help them?
We are talking about people who are in pain going to a man who says that the cure lies in a cross that belongs to him personally not to the Church.
They seem to have been persuaded to leave. I will grant them an old monastery in Vari that will become a proper monastery, regulated, monitored, etc. They will have rules, they will have discipline. I have given them a few days’ time, and I expect an answer in five days. If they say they accept, we will follow it up. If they say “we’re staying here,” we will do what the rules of the Church dictate and what the laws of the state dictate. If they go to a legal monastery and those naive enough go there, they are accountable to themselves, but it will be something that is controlled, whereas now there is no control. The cross is not something that can be weaponized. It will be put on display in the monastery, where anyone can go and bow before it.
What about the rumor that you have been pressured by powerful people over the priest of Agios Isidoros?
Never.
How do you see the tension with Turkey and what do you think will happen?
I think that in order to survive politically, Erdogan will cause an incident, in order to avoid elections. Ι don’t know how long this will last. It will not end easily and I am very much afraid.
‘When a state becomes independent, it is not unusual to want its Church to be independent. This is how other places were given independence after the creation of states, it is nothing new’
The war in Ukraine also has a religious aspect too. Russia is being criticized for destroying religious monuments, and much more so for denying autocephaly and considering the Ukrainian church part of the Moscow Patriarchate.
First of all, let me make an observation. The Russian people did not live in a democracy. They are a troubled people and perhaps Cyril and the government are taking advantage of that. Ukraine is the one that first accepted Christianity. This is one of the reasons why Ukraine is justified in wanting to be an independent Church. Also, things are moving forward. When a state becomes independent, it is not unusual to want its Church to be independent. This is how other places were given independence after the creation of states, it is nothing new.
I will confess that on this subject I received one visit from the ambassador of the United States and three from the ambassador of Russia. To the American ambassador I said that I will side with the Patriarch and therefore your will will be done, but it is not a political choice, I am not doing it because America wants it, I am doing it because I respect what the Patriarch stands for. And to the Russian ambassador I said I’m sorry but we are one family with the Patriarch. How can I leave my family to go somewhere else? I’m aligned with the Patriarch.
To conclude, what is the relationship between the Church and the state?
I am neither with Samaras, nor with Tsipras, nor with Mitsotakis. I am a man of the Church. What concerns me is our people. And therefore I don’t want to get the people riled up. When they were demonstrating for the identity cards, I too was upset that it [the religion] was being omitted, but I knew what would happen in the end. Or the demonstrations [over the Macedonia name dispute]. I was alone. Now I say, if I were like those people who held rallies, I would give up.
Some say that if the late archbishop Christodoulos were alive, during the bailout, during the Prespes name accord, he would have been vocally rallying the populace.
Look, these issues are not ours to deal with, they are in the hands of others. And if I may give a piece of advice, politicians should have their own opinions on small things, but on big things, like relations with Turkey, they should be united.
Is there anything that keeps you awake at night?
A lot. I would like my successor to continue this effort, I would like it to be an effort that goes hand in hand, with sincere and honest cooperation. And it is important for the Church to be free to choose its own staff.
