Olmert: ‘Gaza is Palestinian, and it has to be governed by the Palestinians’
Two years ago, the former prime minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, in an interview with Kathimerini, underlined the excellent relations between the Israeli and Greek people. Today, with the war in the Gaza Strip entering its eighth month of military operations, Olmert stresses to Kathimerini that he felt offended by the anti-Semitic expressions of some Panathinaikos fans at the recent basketball game against Maccabi Tel Aviv.
A critic of Netanyahu’s “far-right” coalition and the lack of an Israeli strategy for Gaza, he does not hesitate to assess as oxymoronic the reactions of the international community, which initially supported Israel’s “righteous” reaction to the Hamas terrorist attack. In the same vein, the former prime minister describes as “ridiculous” and “childish” the comparison of Israel with Nazi Germany by Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
You recently stated that Isreali Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu “has no strategy for the war.” Starting with this, how is the situation unfolding at the moment in Gaza and by extension in Rafah?
There is fighting in the northern part of Gaza, in the center part of Gaza, in [the southern Gaza district of] Zeitoun, and in other places that were vacated already by us. We have destroyed all the Hamas installations; we pulled out and they came in again. And this is also the nature of the confrontation in Rafah. We are still not in the center of Rafah, but the problem is that in the event that we will be able to destroy all the remaining battalions of Hamas, what would the strategy be?
As you said at the beginning, I think the Israeli government does not have any strategy for what we want to achieve. Do we want to remain the police force in Gaza forever? In other words, to expand the Israeli occupation from the West Bank, also into Gaza? I think that this will be a tragic mistake. We are very much opposed to it!
On Wednesday, I heard that the Israeli minister of defense is also opposed to it in a very explicit manner. So, I hope that they will come up with some ideas.
Many are criticizing the fact that the war has lasted longer than intended, leading to the loss of thousands of civilian lives from both camps and to the rise of anti-Semitism. Do you think Netanyahu’s coalition has mismanaged the whole situation?
First of all, yes, I think that it was mismanaged in a very obvious manner. And this is happening because, as I said before, there is no strategy. Everyone understands that Israel needs to reach out to Hamas and kill as many as possible because they really pose a genuine threat to the security and stability of this area. But, again, there was no strategy as to what else to do.
However, I do not think that this is the cause of the anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is as old as the world and it did not start now. It has been part of life for generations and generations. When Jews did not have a state, there was still anti-Semitism, when Jews did have a state, there was still anti-Semitism.
It is true that the last events that took place as a result of the October Massacre of Israelis allowed many to spell out their criticism of Israel, because of massive destruction in many parts of Gaza, which people do not accept and are not prepared to tolerate. But anti-Semitism was long before that.
And I think that this hostility is disproportionate because quite frankly when the international community said to Israel in October, “You have a right to go out and kill Hamas,” they knew that Hamas is embedded in the center of towns, in underground hospitals, in mosques, in schools, and public facilities.
So, what did they think? Israel will fight against Hamas and civilians will not be killed? Is it possible? When everyone says to Israel, the president of America, the prime minister of Great Britain, and even your leaders said that Israel has a right to respond. They knew that civilians would be killed. So, I think that the criticism has to be balanced with a very careful examination of the circumstances and the events, and in any way, I think that we have to stop the war.
Therefore, I do not reflect the policy of the Israeli government. I do not support the Israeli government. I do not speak for the Israeli government. As far as I am concerned, this government should be overthrown instantly, but I will not share the observation that the Israeli soldiers are criminals killing innocent people on purpose. That is not true.
On Wednesday, Netanyahu stated that he is “not prepared to switch from Hamastan to Fatahstan.” In your opinion, what is the political perspective of Gaza? And, secondly, does Israel wish to remain with troops in the area or will it withdraw forces as it did in 2005?
Look, I am in favor of a two-state solution. I think that Gaza is Palestinian, and it has to be governed by the Palestinians. Who should the Palestinians be? It is for the Palestinians to determine. I think, quite frankly, that there should be a Palestinian Authority reformed and strengthened, and they have to make the changes. It is not for us to do it. It is for them to do it.
Among the changes they may need to make is to divide the position of the president, what they call a ceremonial position, and appoint an executive prime minister who will have the power to appoint the necessary representatives to govern Gaza.
Gaza has to be Palestinian, but of course it cannot be dominated by terrorist organizations, neither by Hamas nor by the Islamic Jihad.
On the other hand, Netanyahu speaks for his political base, not for any serious, realistic judgment of the reality. If Israel remains in Gaza it will have endless confrontations, endless terror, unlimited number of Israeli casualties, almost on a daily basis, just as it happened in Lebanon. And there was no advantage to staying there as there is no advantage in staying in Gaza.
In Gaza, we destroyed most of the military power of Hamas, we destroyed many of the tunnels, maybe 12,000-14,000 of the soldiers, and most of their command positions. And if necessary, in the future, we will have to completely accomplish a total military victory. But at this point, we have to stop the war and bring back the hostages. This is more important than anything else.
In the recent meeting between the Greek prime minister and the president of Turkey, the latter mentioned that more than 1,000 Hamas terrorists are being treated in Turkish hospitals. After this official position, will Israel-Turkey relations be negatively affected?
They are already negatively affected. Look, I know President Erdogan very well. I had very good relations with him for a long time. But unfortunately, President Erdogan is an Islamist, and he has established his political power based on the Islamic movements. I remember the day that he told me that “Abu Mazen is not a Palestinian. Only the Hamas are Palestinians.” So, I am really sorry that Erdogan pushed this to an extreme. And that definitely affects relations between Israel and Turkey, regrettably.
In an interview with Kathimerini, Erdogan accused Israel of “systematic mass killings in Gaza” and added that Hitler “would have envied the genocidal methods” of Israel. What is your response to the Turkish accusations?
This is so ridiculous, so childish and so stupid, and I do not think they deserve any reaction. You know, I am sure that had I asked people in Greece, what do they think about Erdogan, they may have used expressions that are not very complimentary and not very positive. Suffice it to say that.
In conclusion, two years ago I asked you about the importance of the alliance between Greece and Israel. With Greece having stood by Israel and against the terrorist acts in Hamas, what is the importance of the Greek-Israeli friendship?
Look, the relations between us are very good. I am not sure that the relations between the fans of Panathinaikos and Maccabi Tel Aviv are so good. I was somewhat insulted when I watched the games and I saw in the fans of Panathinaikos that their hatred of Maccabi went beyond Maccabi into the State of Israel and the Jews.
This was not in the tradition of the relations between the people and also the sports relations between Israel and Greece. Actually, the coach of Maccabi Tel Aviv was the star of Panathinaikos who won the European trophy against Maccabi, his own team.
So, we see that there are different relations between the two countries and I regret that some of this has been expressed in a very hostile and unfriendly manner. But I hope that soon enough, it will be restored to the more traditional and friendly cooperation that has characterized the relations between the two countries.
