‘Pirate’ Erdogan’s visit a mistake, says ex-PM
Antonis Samaras, the former prime minister (2012-15) and leader of conservative New Democracy (2009-15), has told Kathimerini that he is opposed to the upcoming visit of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, whom he insisted on calling a “pirate,” as he has done in the past. Erdogan is scheduled to visit Athens on December 7.
Samaras used the word “appeasement,” uttered by the other living former conservative leader, Κostas Karamanlis; “Two former prime ministers can’t be so wrong,” he said.
On the recent tax reform bill, Samaras noted that it is in the right direction, but needs to be amended.
Commenting on recent political developments, he said that society is trending more conservative and that New Democracy is not endangered by parties to its right but “only by itself, when it exclusively targets” a centrist audience, another dig at Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis.
Samaras stressed that he would vote against legalizing same-sex marriage (civil unions are already legal). “We must support the nuclear family, where we have parental models of both sexes,” he said.
On December 7, Erdogan will be in Athens for the summit meeting with Kyriakos Mitsotakis. According to sources, the agenda involves a memorandum of cooperation on migration. What are your expectations?
I will start with the latest, although least important for us, developments. Mr Erdogan has clashed openly with the whole of the West: with the United States, with Europe, with Israel and now with Germany. A few days ago he once again blocked Sweden’s accession to NATO.
During summits, you at least try not to aggravate bilateral relations. Here, the opposite is happening: After Erdogan’s visit to Berlin, German-Turkish relations did not improve; they deteriorated. The German government was placed in an awkward situation and Chancellor [Olaf] Scholz in an even more awkward one. German public opinion and the press are furious with Erdogan and consider that Erdogan has really become unmoored. Lesson: It would have been better if the visit had never taken place.
‘As long as President Erdogan continues to behave like a pirate, there is no “positive agenda.” If he changes tack, we can look into it’
Can we, right now, come to an agreement with someone with whom all our allies and partners disagree? The one whom everyone considers as a “black sheep”? The one who serves, politically, economically and operationally, the anti-Western axis? So, I don’t think [the visit] is a good idea.
How about the memorandum of cooperation on migration? Isn’t it useful to reduce or eliminate the flows?
Do you remember how many such “agreements” Turkey has signed with Europe in recent years? Have they abided with any? Does anyone dispute that illegal migrant flows are planned by the Turkish regime and are used as leverage to blackmail Greece and Europe?
Let’s harbor no illusions: The only guarantee to deter illegal migration is our determination and the strengthening of the means of deterrence at our, and Europe’s, disposal.
We have been going recently through the calmest phase in Greek-Turkish relations. After a sort of dialogue with Ankara, incursions into Greek air space and tensions, in general, have disappeared. You have said that “you do not pursue a dialogue with the pirate.” Do you insist on that position?
Look: As a former prime minister, I have an obligation to intervene. And let’s look at the most important issue for us: [territorial] violations may have gone down, at least temporarily, but not the provocations. And the “faits accomplis” created by Turkey at our expense, are still standing. Violations had also almost been eliminated when I was prime minister. Do you remember? But this did not hinder Turkey from coming back and escalating them. But, now, there is something that did not exist back then: the Turkish-Libyan memorandum [delineating maritime zones]. We have material violations of Greek sovereign rights at sea [exclusive economic zones etc). And we’ve got the very recent statements by the Turkish Chief of Naval Staff about our islands which we have supposedly “occupied.” Do I also need to remind you about the latest statement by Erdogan that his “heart beats in Thessaloniki”?
So, Turkey is constantly provoking. And creates new faits accomplis at our expense. So, it makes no sense to pretend we are “discussing” with Turkey as long as it insists on the new faits accomplis.
You don’t believe in the so-called positive agenda, then?
When I say you don’t discuss with pirates, that’s exactly what I mean. As long as he continues to behave like a pirate, there is no “positive agenda.” If he changes tack, we can look into it. But not before. As long as they insist on the illegal Turkish-Libyan memorandum, as long as they continue to populate Famagusta – now they want to build a naval base there! – as long as they foment “minority issues” in Thrace and the Dodecanese, what sense does it make to create the perceptions that there are grounds for agreement between us?
Note this: Starting with our 2012-15 government, we built two very important trilateral alliances: Greece-Cyprus-Israel and Greece-Cyprus-Egypt. How do you think Egypt and Israel view the visit by Erdogan – that is, Hamas’ official protector?
When they create faits accomplis against you and then tell you, “Let’s find common ground,” you first demand to the reversal of these faits accomplis so that a real dialogue can start. If you do no, if you try to soothe them, this is called “appeasement,” as I have repeatedly said, and as, correctly, Kostas Karamanlis underlined a few weeks ago. And appeasement has always been very dangerous. Do you think two former prime ministers and two former New Democracy leaders can be so wrong?
Albania persists in its line in the Fredi Beleri case, despite Greek pressure. What should be our stance vis-a-vis Tirana?
We are absolutely right to insist on Beleri’s release. This was confirmed by [Minister of State Stavros] Papastavrou’s visit to Albania, his meeting Beleri in prison and his statements there. And we should keep the pressure up. We must make very clear to anyone that Albania’s accession to the EU will be blocked unless Beleri is released and takes over as the duly elected mayor of Himare.
Let’s move to domestic developments. The government is getting pushback from professionals over the tax bill. What is your view on the bill?
We’ve got very positive developments on the economy, such as the investment grade regained for the first time in 14 years.
Now, on your question. We must attack tax evasion. We owe that to the law-abiding taxpayers. But how to do so is not simple. The government rightly attempts to solve this complex problem, in the face of much disagreement and reactions. But, hear me on that: I’ve been an MP since 1977. For decades, all governments tried to fight tax evasion through imputed income and expenditure. Let’s be clear: It didn’t work. I think a tax regime should reveal, and tax, real incomes and not “imputed” ones, that is those we estimate are the real ones, because the system cannot discover actual incomes. With lower tax rates and taking into account all professionals’ expenditures. And these days, we’ve got the technology – the internet, electronic payments – etc to accomplish what was impossible in the past. So, broadly speaking, the [government] initiative to reform taxation is in the right direction, but I believe some corrections must be made.
The result of the recent regional elections was not the one New Democracy, since, with the exception of the Peloponnese, all dissident conservatives prevailed (over the official candidates). What do you think was the message the voters sent?
Society totally rejected SYRIZA! Both in the national elections and the first round of the local ones. It showed, that is, it will not allow a SYRIZA comeback. But, from the moment SYRIZA was routed and started disintegrating, voters sent the message that society is moving to the right. They also showed that the candidates’ personality and how they campaign are especially important. Arrogance and toxicity no longer have the social cachet. We saw that in the Peloponnese.
The next polls are coming soon; we have the European elections in seven months. Do you agree with the position that New Democracy is vulnerable on its right?
Society is moving rightward, not only in Greece, but in Europe. Everywhere! See what happened in the Netherlands, a couple of days ago. When the [Greek] electorate feared an electoral comeback by SYRIZA, it voted massively for New Democracy. And when the danger of a SYRIZA comeback receded for good, many did not turn out to vote [in the second national election]. And today, abstention is at its highest level since the [restoration of democracy in 1974]. Of course, part of the electorate voted for smaller right-wing parties. However, even if they totaled 14% of the vote, politically they do not amount to much. New Democracy is not threatened by the actual parties to its right, which, anyway, do not represent what society is seeking at present. ND is threatened only by itself. When it exclusively targets the [political] center, at the moment when society is moving to the right, it is in danger of losing its balance.
The prime minister has announced a law on the marriage of same-sex couples over the course of the newly elected Parliament. Will you vote for the bill?
No! I believe we must support the nuclear family, where there are parental models of both sexes. That is, where there is a mother and a father. To face our demographic problem, we must place emphasis on the nuclear family. In any case, the civil contract for same-sex couples has resolved any “rights” issue. But to recognize a “marriage,” will then oblige us – for the sake of equalizing two different things – to recognize adoption by same-sex couples. But, children need parental models of both sexes. They need – and have a right to – both a mother and father. Not “parent one” and “parent two.”
Whatever anyone does in their private life must be respected. Absolutely! But let us not confuse sexual preferences with sexes, of which there are two. And we should not confuse the civil union contract with a child-rearing family, where both sexes are needed.
One more thing: Women are not “birthing machines” that will “assist” same-sex couples in having children and then disappear. This devalues women and is traumatizing to children. Motherhood is not a kind of service offered. Neither is it a financial transaction. It is the source of life and a life investment, with enormous emotional baggage – both for women and children.
We see in the latest opinion polls that SYRIZA has slid to third place after 11 years. How do you interpret this decline?
A very natural development. A party made up of disparate left-wing factions, that rose by deceiving the people and slandering its political opponent, naturally dissolving to its constituent elements. What is happening is very revealing: prominent SYRIZA members discovering an unimaginable sordidness, the “dark basements” of party headquarters [Note: Samaras means the alleged “army” of internet trolls]. Why now? But, because they turned against them. All these years that these trolls were on the rampage with character assassinations of SYRIZA opponents, they knew nothing about them.
